WARNING: THIS IS A TEST

NOTE: THIS DOES NOT CONTAIN NEW TYRE PHYSICS

PLEASE TEST BEFORE YOU POST


Hello Racers,

Here is a new TEST PATCH: 0.6R22

It contains some updates related to some recent changes on our servers:
- A more robust method for connecting to the master server
- Skin downloading now works with the updated website

There are many updates to the layout editor.
These are described in the change log below and in a separate thread:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/92152

0.6R22 is compatible with 0.6R

- You CAN connect online with 0.6R
- You CAN play replays from 0.6R

You cannot upload hotlaps made with this test patch because it is only a test patch, not an official patch.

Please back up or rename your LFS.exe from version R so you can revert to it if necessary.


Changes from 0.6R21 to 0.6R22:

Layout editor:

ALT key now temporarily hides the outlines of selected objects

Interface:

More updated translations - Thank you translators!


Changes from 0.6R to 0.6R21:

Multiplayer:

More robust method for connecting to the master server
More informative error report for "Unknown file transfer error"
FIX: Skin downloading now works with the protected website

Layout editor:

New layout editor instructions: docs\Autocross.txt
New cut / copy / paste system using standard keyboard shortcuts
COPY (CTRL+C) toggles between real selection and copied selection
Place objects (O) key is equivalent to PASTE followed by COPY
Move objects (M) key is equivalent to CUT followed by PASTE
UNDO (CTRL+Z) and REDO (CTRL+Y) functions are now included
A green or yellow outline is drawn around the selected objects
Original objects are shown with a grey outline after COPY pressed
Editor buttons and keys affect real or copied selection - not both
PGUP / PGDN can now be used to adjust Z value of selected objects
C key now clears selected object type as well as selected objects
It is now possible to set marshall circles to have zero diameter
Objects and marshall circles can now be selected at the same time
Multiple object rectangle select CTRL+drag with left mouse button
Start position / checkpoints / finish line now in control section
You can hold SHIFT to keep objects selected when exiting edit mode

Graphics:

Slight reduction in some excessively bright driver models
RAW files are no longer used and skies now use DDS textures
Existing RAW files are converted the first time LFS is started
Removed option to view sky in 16-bit colour

Interface:

New URL for skin uploads lfs.net/skins
Text message dialog now has variable width
Clip mouse to screen is now CTRL+M as CTRL+C is used for copy
Command /axsel to copy layout editor selection text to clipboard

Free view camera position text command:

Type /cp to copy a text camera position to the clipboard
The resulting text can be saved in a text file, forum, etc. or into
another instance of Live for Speed to reproduce the camera position

Commands:

Improved processing of command line to be more flexible
New command /settings=X.txt - uses X.txt instead of cfg.txt
Command /settings must be the first on command line or in file
Command /mp (join local host) can now be used on the command line

Misc:

Live for Speed can now recover from a graphics driver error
Textures are no longer reloaded when changing weather (faster)
LFS starting in borderless window mode now goes to the same monitor
New option "Display LFS logo in game" (not optional in demo mode)
English file is no longer saved when LFS starts (can be deleted)
New check for corrupted 3D models to avoid possible crash on load

VR:

New commands to skip F8 menu /vr reset_headset and /vr use_relative

InSim:

New value PMO_POSITION for IS_AXM packet to report a blank position
New packet IS_CIM reports a connection's interface / editor mode
New values PMO_SELECTION_REAL and PMO_MOVE_MODIFY for PMOFlags
New values TTC_SEL_START and TTC_SEL_STOP for IS_TTC
New value PMO_GET_Z for IS_AXM packet to report Z values
New value PMO_AVOID_CHECK for PMO_ADD_OBJECTS avoids validity check
UCID can be set in some IS_AXM packets by an external InSim program
to make the resulting packets appear as if sent by an editing admin
(PMO_ADD_OBJECTS / PMO_DEL_OBJECTS / PMO_CLEAR_ALL)


INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS:

A FULL version of LFS 0.6R must already be installed

To install the PATCH using the SELF EXTRACTING ARCHIVE:

1) Move or save the patch into your main LFS folder
2) Double click the patch to extract it to that folder
3) When you see "Confirm File Replace" select "Yes to All"
4) Now you can start LFS in the normal way

NOTE: You can see if the patch is correctly installed when you run
the program (LFS.exe). At the bottom of the entry screen: 0.6R22


DOWNLOADS:

IF YOU ALREADY HAVE 0.6R:
PATCH 0.6R TO 0.6R22 (SELF EXTRACTING ARCHIVE)
www.lfs.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_PATCH_6R_TO_6R22.exe (1.4 MB)

FOR HOSTING ONLY:
DEDICATED HOST 0.6R22 (non-graphical version for hosting only):
www.lfs.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_S3_DCON_6R22.zip (1.8 MB)

Last edited by Scawen, Tue 3 Jul 2018, 14:26.

Can all of you access www.lfsworld.net - I can't at the moment although Victor can.

EDIT : OK thanks for the test, I think it was a DNS propagation issue and my ISP isn't updated yet.

Last edited by Scawen, Tue 3 Apr 2018, 16:03.

Quote from Scawen :

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Still, I'm sure that the Dev's do care about those of us that did /do buy this game and are working full time on releasing the update....

Yes, we are, but obviously you are insinuating that we are not.

To be clear, we are working towards an update.

I've said it many times recently. So many times, I am getting bored of hearing these words ringing in my head when I type this. We are working on important graphical updates.

We are not currently in the final stages of a release. If we were, then the test patch forum would be open.

EDIT: OK, you removed the bug report. Here's my test result anyway. Seems OK.
-----
I just started a host on my local computer then made a guest join it using the following command line:

/mp=192.168.0.4 63392

It also works with 127.0.0.1

You do need the port there and you need the equals sign /mp=

Hi Sicotange,

I can't really work on InSim improvements right now as I really need to get some shader updates finished that I am already in the middle of doing.

As you know, I like the things you do with InSim and layouts so I'd like to support them. I think the idea of reporting the line id makes some sense but also there is something a bit incomplete / temporary / not quite right about it. For reasons like (1) the same id can be used in different places, and (2) users can often navigate by key presses instead of clicking a button.

So maybe it would be better to understand what problem it is you are trying to solve and maybe there is a better / more reliable solution. But take your time as I have the shader updates to work on at the moment. I actually have a note on my to do list, to look at some of the things you have requested before. Maybe it would be good to get your requests into one place, perhaps in an email so I can refer to that during a test patch stage.

This current update was really to try and make LFS reliable and easier to set up for SimulatorRental.com as it seems a cool setup that he has, but LFS going to a black screen wasn't a good advert for LFS!

No, I am not expecting to do a series of test patches leading to a release at this time.

I have been working on more advanced shaders recently. They are unfinished and they are not included in this test patch.

This test patch lacks any real graphical updates and in fact looks worse in places because of the incompatible lighting.

It is really a test patch for the graphics driver crash recovery system and the /settings command which may help SimulatorRental.com

OK, here is the test patch. I don't recommend it for everyone, as some lighting has been removed from some of the objects in the more recently updated tracks (WE / BL / RO).

Please backup your version R LFS.exe so you can return to that version at any time.


EDIT : UPDATED TO R7 ON 24 OCTOBER


NOTE :

When you first run this test patch there will be a hang of around
40 seconds while the old .raw files are converted to .png files.


NOTE2 :

Due to various updates, the rendered lighting has been removed from
modelled objects in the game. This can only be fixed by supplying
freshly rendered tracks but this is just a small test patch.


Installation :

A FULL version of LFS 0.6R must already be installed

To install the PATCH :

1) Move or save the patch into your main LFS folder
2) Double click the patch to extract it to that folder
3) When you see "Confirm File Replace" select "Yes to All"
4) Now you can start LFS in the normal way

NOTE : You can see if the patch is correctly installed when you run
the program (LFS.exe). At the bottom of the entry screen : 0.6R5


Changes from 0.6R to 0.6R5 :

Textures :

PNG files are now used in the few cases where RAW files were used
Removed option to view sky in 16-bit colour
Sky now uses DDS (compressed) textures

Commands :

Improved processing of command line to be more flexible
New command /settings=X.txt - uses X.txt instead of cfg.txt
Command /settings must be the first on command line or in file
Command /mp (join local host) can now be used on the command line

Misc :

Live for Speed can now recover from a graphics driver error
LFS starting in borderless window mode now goes to the same monitor
Textures are no longer reloaded when changing weather (avoids hang)
New option "Display LFS logo in game" (not optional in demo mode)
English file is no longer saved when LFS starts (can be deleted)

VR :

New commands to skip F8 menu /vr reset_headset and /vr use_relative

Download :

https://www.lfs.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_PATCH_6R_TO_6R7.exe (1 MB)

Last edited by Scawen, Tue 24 Oct 2017, 17:13.

This seems to be going well, so I hope to be able to upload a test in a few hours.

Answers to some of your questions:

/host=hostname does work in the command line. There is no equivalent in the cfg.txt file.

So for the host you could use something like:

LFS.exe /settings=cfg_host.txt /host=hostname

The /mp=IP# command does not work as a command line option. Maybe you can do auto join using the autoexec.lfs script. I think you won't need to rename it for each instance, you could have a static one.

So your guests would use:

LFS.exe /setttings=cfg_guest1.txt (etc)

And there would be a static autoexec.lfs in the scripts folder with one command /mp=x.x.x.x

Last edited by Scawen, Fri 20 Oct 2017, 15:39.

Quote from " :

The way I had it working, was good for a beta test and getting it to work. Hopefully time spent once, setting this up by swapping the cfg.txt will save time at each event dong this over and over again.

Would be easier if when loading a driver it would load up a cfg.txt file of the same name, or name specified in driver's file.

Yes I think this should save time. I'm really interested to know if the audio and controller devices really are recognised, and always the same one when you restart with the correct cfg file.

Also there may be another benefit. As the window position is also stored within the cfg file. Maybe it's possible the LFS instance will go to the correct monitor as well? We'll see.


BUT... for your test you might like to wait a little, because I am trying something that I hope will do away with any file renaming at all. The driver name and setup is also stored in the cfg.txt so it really is the key. This morning I am trying to implement a new command for the command line /settings=cfg_1.txt so that instead of using cfg.txt it would use cfg_1.txt (or whatever name you choose).

So then you will be able to start your LFS instances with a shortcut (or command in batch file) like this:

LFS.exe /settings=cfg_1.txt

And that will load the cfg_1.txt when starting up. Also any settings you change while LFS is running would also be saved in cfg_1.txt, ready to be used the next time you start that instance.

The current tyre physics uses a slip-v-force curve that is made up to resemble the real thing, but not really based on physical principles. The lateral and longitudinal forces are combined in a made up way to produce reasonable results but again this is not based on physicsl principles.

So the result is that in various ways, the current LFS tyres don't react just like the real thing. We did make a lot of comparisons with real test data to try and get good results all those years ago and that's why it is not bad to drive.

I don't want to start discussing the new tyre model at this point but it is based on physical models of real tyres (with some assumptions and approximations) and compared with experimental data in better ways. The model is separated into the tread (contact patch) and the carcass (the belted, inflated, deformable structure).

My plan at the moment is to get the new tyre physics to a good condition where we are happy that it works better than the old one in all situations and then release it. There will always be more to be done, as it's not possible to make a perfect tyre model, so I expect there will be more improvements to come later, but without needing a complete rewrite.

Quote from tankslacno :

By the way, I think you forgot to mention one thing about the changes from 0.6Q to 0.6R. That is:
- (Various/Some/Many) Translations updated - thank you translators!

Without that, I actually couldn't tell for sure that if translations were updated or not until I made a fresh installation of LFS. At least some of them are updated though.

Ah yeah because for once I didn't add any translation lines. I always do check for any updated translations and put them in test patches and the final update. Thank you for yours!

Quote from BeNoM :

Scawen how come after updating there's file in my main LFS folder called "lfs_restart.bin" ?

Normally that should be deleted by the LFS restarter program. It is a data file that LFS saves to tell the restarter program the sequence of patches to install.

Don't know why it's still there, but you can safely delete it if your update has been successful.

Thank you all for the testing!

0.6R has now been released!
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/90458

Test patch users, if you use the auto-updater you will get a smaller download (it doesn't get all the textures because you already have them).

To use the auto-updater, start LFS, multiplayer, List of Hosts.

Quote from Ibtasim6781 :

Found 2 more misplacements behind the tire stacks before Turn 1, after entering the gate with the little ¿gravel? road, to the left. Now you can't jump there boosting with the tire stacks anymore :c xP
Screenshots says all

Thanks.

Quote from Ibtasim6781 :

EDIT2: Pit Speed Limit bug

I don't understand... what is the bug?

[ EDIT : OK, I see for some reason because of rolling downhill above speed limiter speed, the engine dies (as expected, in a way, but maybe this is the problem) then the clutch is stuck on (unexpected) and then you are stuck. Not a new bug, but yeah, looks like a bug. ]

Quote from Ibtasim6781 :

Off-Topic Note: 3rd person view lags depending on where the car is pointing at: When I face towards the industrial area, or if I face straight on the straight end.

I think you probably have the follower view set too high. When it is too high, it can't use the pro-computer invisivle object removal.

To test this, try SHIFT+F8 (Network Debug) and you will see a message when the view info changes, between low / high / none.

Last edited by Scawen, Sat 28 Jan 2017, 09:54.

Test Patch Q14 :

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/90424

This is intended as the final test patch!

Changes from 0.6Q12 to 0.6Q14 :

New Blackwood :
More fixes including some Z buffer issues and lod distances

Physics :
improved collision and tyre rolling on the 3D kerb objects

Fixes :
FIX : Removed message "Side mirror - point too central"

Last edited by Scawen, Fri 27 Jan 2017, 21:02. Reason : removed download link now that Q14 is available in the first post

Kerb Physics Test

Hi, I have attached an LFS.exe (Q13) which has a slightly differebt reaction on the kerb objects. The idea is to provide all the same bumps but avoid the large sideways forces that can unsettle the car more badly than in reality.

Please can you try it and see if it's safer on the kerbs?

NOTE : This is not intended to make kerb driving a lovely experience! It is an attempt to avoid some unrealistic actions, possibly leading to unexpected spins, particularly when your wheel goes over the top of the kerb and hits the steep edge of it.

0.6Q12 MUST ALREADY BE INSTALLED!

OK, here is a test for this specific issue.

IS_OBH will be reported less frequently now.

TYRE contacts - IS_OBH is only reported when a movable object is hit
BODY contacts - IS_OBH is reported for all movable objects and unmovable layout objects

Previously, TYRE and BODY reported all object contacts regardless of movable or in a layout.

This is only the EXE - 0.6Q10 must already be installed!

Thanks for the comments. I may have a solution here. In fact I have found the tyres on concrete "roads" gave unreliable results anyway, because they depend on a "closing speed" and that is near to zero because your car is traveling parallel to the surface. So that's why it didn't in fact report IS_OBJ on every concrete object, but often did on hitting a new concrete objects with a steeper gradient.

The possible solution I've tested is to carry on reporting body contacts as before, but avoid reporting when a tyre contact point touches an unmovable object. This way the excessive kerb reporting issue is avoided, and the unreliable concrete reporting is turned to zero.

So far this seems to be working but I'll test some more now. I'm concerned about the situation of someone with low suspension scraping a little, reporting too many of these "collisions".

EDIT:

Quote from vitaly_m :

But contact report should really happen only when you hit something movable, or when you hit it with any car part but rubber.

Interesting that while I was posting, you came up with this that matches my proposed solution.

WARNING : THIS IS A TEST

NOTE : THIS DOES NOT CONTAIN NEW TYRE PHYSICS


THIS PATCH CONTAINS A BLACKWOOD UPDATE AND IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH 0.6Q

YOU CANNOT REVERT THIS UPDATE!

IF YOU WANT TO STILL USE THE 0.6Q VERSION, MAKE A FRESH LFS INSTALLATION FOR THIS TEST


PLEASE TEST BEFORE YOU POST


Hello Racers,

Here is a new TEST PATCH : 0.6Q14

It contains a new version of Blackwood :

- New textures, geometry and detail improvements all around
- New Historic configuration (similar to GP but without chicane)
- New industrial estate area available when open config selected

Other incompatible changes :

XRG / XRT / FZ5 maximum steering angle increased to 45 degrees
Spawn position now disables "Could not join : Start is blocked"
Maximum number of layout objects increased to 2100 (was 1800)

Other changes :

There is an improvement in the car shadow system, which until now could cast shadows in the wrong direction.
Skid marks now remain remain when the race restarts and are visible on layout objects.
There is a new map view for open configurations and the track selection screen.
Please read the full list of changes below for more information.


0.6Q14 is NOT compatible with 0.6Q

- You CAN NOT connect online with 0.6Q
- You CAN play replays from 0.6Q excluding replays at Blackwood

You cannot upload hotlaps made with this test patch because it is only a test patch, not an official patch.


Changes from 0.6Q12 to 0.6Q14 :

New Blackwood :

More fixes including some Z buffer issues and lod distances

Physics :

improved collision and tyre rolling on the 3D kerb objects

Fixes :

FIX : Removed message "Side mirror - point too central"


Changes from 0.6Q10 to 0.6Q12 :

New Blackwood :

Various fixes for error spotted during testing e.g cracks and holes
Estate now uses two paths for echo maps and hidden object removal

InSim :

Reduced the frequency of IS_OBH packets due to blackwood kerbs
IS_OBH is always reported, as before, for movable objects
TYRE contacts no longer report IS_OBH for unmovable objects
BODY contacts also report unmovable objects played in a layout

Fixes :

FIX : Message text was faded on entering free view from escape menu


Changes from 0.6Q9 to 0.6Q10 :

New Blackwood environment :

- New textures, geometry and detail improvements all around
- New Historic configuration (similar to GP but without chicane)
- New industrial estate area available when open config selected

Other incompatible changes :

XRG / XRT / FZ5 maximum steering angle increased to 45 degrees
Spawn position now disables "Could not join : Start is blocked"
Maximum number of layout objects increased to 2100 (was 1800)


Changes from 0.6Q to 0.6Q9 :

Interface :

New small map view for open configs / car parks / autocross areas
Small map opacity can now be set for light and dark map colours
Improvements on track selection screen using the area maps

Graphics :

Shadows are no longer cast updwards or towards the light
Ambient (non-direct) shadow darkness now depends on distance
Skid marks now remain when race restarts (excluding replays)
Increased LOD distances of humans / drivers / marshalls
Skid marks are now visible on unmovable layout objects

Misc :

Westhill paths adjusted and regenerated to avoid graphical holes
Autocross paths regenerated and physical hole fixed at skid pad
New text command /lang X to load language (data\language\X.txt)

Fixes :

FIX : LFS could crash using /axload with a long layout name
FIX : Traffic lights did not work after texture resolution change


INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS :

A FULL version of LFS 0.6Q must already be installed

To install the PATCH using the SELF EXTRACTING ARCHIVE :

1) Move or save the patch into your main LFS folder
2) Double click the patch to extract it to that folder
3) When you see "Confirm File Replace" select "Yes to All"
4) Now you can start LFS in the normal way

NOTE : You can see if the patch is correctly installed when you run
the program (LFS.exe). At the bottom of the entry screen : 0.6Q14

THE FULL VERSION HAS NOW BEEN RELEASED SO YOU DON'T NEED THESE TEST PATCH DOWNLOADS - INSTEAD PLEASE FOLLOW THIS LINK : https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/90458


DOWNLOADS :

IF YOU ALREADY HAVE 0.6Q :
PATCH 0.6Q TO 0.6Q14 (SELF EXTRACTING ARCHIVE)
www.lfs.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_PATCH_6Q_TO_6Q14.exe (132 MB)

IF YOU ALREADY HAVE 0.6Q10 (or later) :
PATCH 0.6Q10 TO 0.6Q14 (SELF EXTRACTING ARCHIVE)
www.lfs.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_PATCH_6Q10_TO_6Q14.exe (34 MB)



FOR HOSTING ONLY

DEDICATED HOST 0.6Q12 (non-graphical version for hosting only) :
www.lfs.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_S3_DCON_6Q12.zip (1.8 MB)

Last edited by Scawen, Sat 28 Jan 2017, 18:17.

Thanks for the testing!

The next test patch is incompatible and contains a new version of Blackwood!

https://www.lfs.net/forum/66

Here's another test patch with some Westhill path fixes, a fix at the Autocross skid pad and opacity sliders for small maps.

Changes from 0.6Q7 to 0.6Q9 :

Small map opacity can now be set for light and dark map colours
Westhill paths adjusted and regenerated to avoid graphical holes
Autocross paths regenerated and physical hole fixed at skid pad

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/90208

Last edited by Scawen, Mon 23 Jan 2017, 20:45. Reason : skid pad, not car park

Test Patch 0.6Q7:

Small map rotation enabled on new open configuration maps
Small map is now available on car park and autocross areas
Improvements on track selection screen using the area maps
Improved and cleaned up the Westhill, Rockingham, Kyoto maps

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/90208

Test Patch 0.6Q5 is now available with fixes and improvements!

Changes from 0.6Q3 to 0.6Q5 :

New map view for open configurations and track selection screen
Skid marks now remain when race restarts (excluding replays)
Skid marks are now visible on unmovable layout objects

FIX : Missing part of shadows at rear of LX4 and LX6
FIX : Shadows seen from a distance were not affected by haze effect

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/90208

Some other requests I still considering. Some requests, including the drift maximum lock increase, would cause an incompatibility issue. I do expect to release an incompatible version in the near future, so it looks like that should be possible, up to 45 degrees (no new tracks, cars or tyre physics in the incompatible version).

Quote from SergoMorello :

Sorry, for off topic, Scawen. Is it possible to make a little more adjustment for steering angle for rear wheel drive cars? As you already know how big drifting community is in LFS. Maybe just a few more degrees. It will not affect grip racing and mess with hotlaps. But it will help LFS drifters a lot, and will bring new emotions.

thank you

I don't know if this can be done without messing up all the hotlaps for those cars. But as it seems so popular, I can look into it. If it would mess up the hotlaps then I won't do it, an increase in steering range would have to wait for the new tyre physics, which I have been working on.

But, to help me, can you tell me exactly which cars need more steering angle to help with drift and how much that extra angle should be? It really must remain within the realms of "realistic" and I guess that means it should not include any cars with front drive.

Quote from mbutcher :

Is this going to be released as a stable build soon or is there more to come?

There is more to come. Explanation below.

Quote from pasibrzuch :

So shadows dissapeared from places they shouldn't be.

Will they come up to where they should be? e.g. yellow lines in pit entry/exit areas, layout surfaces or some 3d objects?

ps. btw of lyt surface, any texture for it + visible skid marks? :]

At the moment the shadows do not affect transparency, and I didn't do anything to change that. It's a good point and I haven't even thought about that! I think with all the other things I am working on, the shadows on alpha surfaces will not be changed in this update.

The problem with skid marks on concrete is if the concrete object disappears, we could have floating skid marks. I haven't yet worked out a system to solve this. Though I haven't put much time into it. I suppose it's possible by registering every bit of skid on an object, so they can vanish if the object is deleted... again, probably not in this update.

Quote from k_badam :

Can we see more of what is to be expected from this patch? It has been almost a month with no changes...

I've been diverted onto some updates on the tyre physics, because I needed to send Eric an update with new editor functions, but the new tyre physics were in an "intermediate" state. Now I've brought them to a driveable state, I can update Eric's dev version and I can get back to some patch things.

But I don't want to try and say what else will be in the patch.

Quote from Jacobys :

Dear Scawen, since everyone is waiting and expecting "wow" content I cannot do something else but stop and ask myself , what can we do to help other than suggesting and demanding improvements? What is our part other than contributing with the licence upgrade?

Yeah, normally the test patch threads are more lively and I keep adding more updates. This time, the shadows were tested, no serious bugs exist and then I've been diverted onto other things and there was also two weeks with the kids at home.

I'm back to work now so hopefully there should be more to test soon!

I've been working mainly on the tyre physics.

Eric has been working on tracks.

Sorry but there's not much more to say at this point.

Anyway, here is a new compatible test patch with some small improvements. Most notably the car shadows are no longer cast towards the light. See the attached screenshot in the Test Patch 0.6Q3 thread.
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/90208

Thanks for the report.

This is fixed in Test Patch 0.6Q3: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/90208